============================================================== Guild: wafer.space Community Channel: 📐 - Designing / 🏗️-die-sorter Topic: Discussion about the "wafer.space design sorter" that Andrew Wingate / evezor is designing to enable the service. See more @ https://github.com/evezor/waferspace_die_sorter After: 2025-08-31 11:59 p.m. Before: 2025-10-01 12:00 a.m. ============================================================== [2025-09-23 12:28 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - This look okay? {Reactions} 💜 [2025-09-23 2:10 a.m.] anfroholic Hey everyone, like Tim mentioned, we’re building a die-sorting robot! To give you a sense of scale, here’s what one run looks like: - 50 full wafers - 28 reticle shots (each a “group photo” of all projects) per wafer - 40 unique projects per reticle shot - Add it up and you get **56,000 project dies** - Each die is about the size of a few grains of rice: 3.88 mm × 5.08 mm - Laid out flat, that’s over 8 ft² (0.8 m²) of silicon — basically a coffee table made of chips In electronics manufacturing, tape-and-reel is the standard way to package components, so that’s our target. We looked at wafer packs (think plastic ice cube trays for chips) and gel packs, but reels make the most sense at this scale. The wafers will arrive pre-sliced and mounted on tape frames. With so many dies to handle, we’re going straight from wafer to reel — no detours. I can’t wait to see all the designs people come up with, and I’ll keep posting updates as this project rolls forward (pun intended). [2025-09-23 2:13 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - 3.88 mm x 5.08mm is a lot bigger than a fingernail clipping unless your not clipping your fingernails a normal amount 😛 {Reactions} 😂 [2025-09-23 2:15 a.m.] anfroholic Yeah.. it's kinda close in sq units. it's a thumbnail at 1mm [2025-09-23 2:21 a.m.] anfroholic These are very early models, just exploring how all the pieces might fit together into a compact machine; after all, this whole setup has to ship to Singapore! The concept is straightforward: the wafer sits right in the center, surrounded by 40 tape-and-reel stations (20 on each side). Each station will load a specific die into its own reel and then seal it up with protective film, ready for shipping :) {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-236E6.png 2025-09_media/image-3309E.png {Reactions} wowtherebuddy [2025-09-23 10:47 p.m.] mithro_ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dXzGoGS7ERWlQNyJ9aNEIOZe-R9AS1tskxvqsQ3FO48/edit?tab=t.0 [2025-09-23 10:47 p.m.] mithro_ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1coUm6J2RCxoX6v4eKYzD-owmuKActA8mDBkgD4J9ECg/edit?gid=196570729#gid=196570729 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1coUm6J2RCxoX6v4eKYzD-owmuKActA8mDBkgD4J9ECg/edit?gid=196570729 Resolution Conversions 2025-09_media/AHkbwyKuJp2nsAKz3JxcghmIJgj-cz5XV0YM_71Nju-6F469 [2025-09-23 11:58 p.m.] mithro_ {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-E27AC.png [2025-09-24 12:08 a.m.] mithro_ {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-433C7.png [2025-09-24 2:08 a.m.] mithro_ {Attachments} 2025-09_media/wafer_die_labels-C18E9.png [2025-09-24 2:10 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - Did you also see https://foss-eda-tools.googlesource.com/third_party/shuttle/gf180mcu/mpw-000/foundry/+/refs/heads/main/manifest-gfmpw-0.csv ? [2025-09-24 2:11 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - @Leo Moser (mole99) is working on the tool which stitches the retcile together @ https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher {Embed} https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher GitHub - wafer-space/reticle-stitcher: Tool for stitcher an MPW int... Tool for stitcher an MPW into a full reticle for delivery to a foundry. - wafer-space/reticle-stitcher 2025-09_media/reticle-stitcher-D3578 [2025-09-24 2:21 a.m.] mithro_ Sadly it doesn't seem like the GF180MCU/MPW-001 which are associated with the die I gave you was never published. [2025-09-24 2:32 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - Reading the IDs - https://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=vendor:efabless#reading_efabless_id_numbers [2025-09-24 4:58 a.m.] anfroholic @Tim 'mithro' Ansell https://github.com/evezor/waferspace_die_sorter/wiki/Overall-Strategies {Embed} https://github.com/evezor/waferspace_die_sorter/wiki/Overall-Strategies Overall Strategies Contribute to evezor/waferspace_die_sorter development by creating an account on GitHub. 2025-09_media/waferspace_die_sorter-66634 [2025-09-24 5:02 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - On the holding of the wafer frame, I'm unclear if you need to do something to the wafer frame to allow easy removal of the die. [2025-09-25 9:05 a.m.] anfroholic Thx for some of the info Tim, -*edit for those watching, we're looking to put dies into smt tape* EIA STANDARD - 8 mm Through 200 mm Embossed Carrier Taping and 8 mm & 12 mm Punched Carrier Taping of Surface Mount Components for Automatic Handling {Attachments} 2025-09_media/EIA-481-2003-14D91.pdf [2025-09-25 9:06 a.m.] anfroholic The process, packaging, and materials cannot impact the components. This includes their markings and their electrical and mechanical characteristics. Additional guidelines exist for further reference, including: EIA-383—Preparation for the Delivery of Electrical and Electronic Components EIA-541—Packaging Material Standards for ESD Sensitive Items EIA-583—Packaging Material Standards for Moisture Sensitive Items EIA-624—Product Package Bar Code Label Standard for Non-Retail Applications [2025-09-25 9:07 a.m.] anfroholic I came across an embossing machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-XQ0Mk-yMQ {Embed} BoardWin Technology https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-XQ0Mk-yMQ Embossed Carrier Tape Forming Machine with Vision System + Slitting... Model : BW-601RS with Vision System + BW-701 + BW-801Tower Tape W : 16 slitting to 12 Ao : 4.5 Bo : 7.35 Ko : 4.25 (mm) 載帶成形機 + 影像檢測系統 + 載帶分條機 + 載帶來回捲繞機 (塔式) キャリアテープ成形機 + 画像処理システム + スリッター機 + クロス巻き機 (塔)... 2025-09_media/maxresdefault-483A6.jpg [2025-09-25 9:08 a.m.] anfroholic {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-469F9.png [2025-09-25 9:12 a.m.] anfroholic Hey Tim, I was just looking around a bit for some info on smt tape. Found a generic supplier and it seems like they have a min order of 5km https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Plastic-Packaging-Materials-for-Electronic-Components_1600512330442.html?spm=a2700.prosearch.normal_offer.d_title.186d67afspjYlH&priceId=1b90f94702bb4f568b4c91a9b0425c83 They also have tape, which seems to be around a dollar at qty 100. They never give the real prices until you start talking with them. https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/13-3-MM-Width-Smt-Cover_1600521271655.html?spm=a2700.details.you_may_like.2.4a234424fGJnNX {Embed} https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Plastic-Packaging-Materials-for-Electronic-Components_1600512330442.html?spm=a2700.prosearch.normal_offer.d_title.186d67afspjYlH&priceId=1b90f94702bb4f568b4c91a9b0425c83 Plastic Packaging Materials For Electronic Components Packing Ps Ca... Plastic Packaging Materials For Electronic Components Packing Ps Carrier Tape - Buy Packaging Materials packaging Materials For Electronic ps Carrier Tape Product on Alibaba.com 2025-09_media/H62f37a51dc1345509c8df30a8a1126f7A-5DFEB.png {Embed} https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/13-3-MM-Width-Smt-Cover_1600521271655.html?spm=a2700.details.you_may_like.2.4a234424fGJnNX 13.3 Mm Width Smt Cover Tape - Buy Cover Tape narrow Width Tape pac... 13.3 Mm Width Smt Cover Tape - Buy Cover Tape narrow Width Tape packing Tape Product on Alibaba.com 2025-09_media/H4bb3eef2c17c4f74ba00401043418f89g-488E1.png [2025-09-25 9:19 a.m.] anfroholic @Tim 'mithro' Ansell I've been playing with a few cameras and microscopes that I have. That 2mp camera I was talking about cannot read these IDs. Also the crappy usb microscope I have also does nothing to help. I also have a 48MP microscope and it also cannot read these id's. What I have shown here is about the best zoom I'm able to get out of it. It's possible with some better light we could get a better look, but at the end of the day these are very very small features. {Attachments} 2025-09_media/0001-1B968.JPG [2025-09-25 9:22 a.m.] 246tnt I would have tought you'd use the position on the wafer to sort, not trying to read those tiny IDs. [2025-09-25 9:24 a.m.] urish I guess you could also visuallly compare the pattern with a reference, if you want to go optical [2025-09-25 9:25 a.m.] anfroholic I came up with this and wanted your opinion of if this is a viable option. The idea is to create larger characters that can fit in every corner. The process and run could somehow be encoded if desired, but all that info is in the id anyways. {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-64A97.png 2025-09_media/image-6A760.png 2025-09_media/5x5-pixel-font-character-map-85F1A.png [2025-09-25 9:27 a.m.] anfroholic Tim has expressed interest in verification steps along the way. Additionally, there seems to be little trust that all wafers will be the exact same (even if this is just how things are mounted on the wafer frame after dicing. [2025-09-25 9:28 a.m.] urish How many projects are you going to have on a wafer? [2025-09-25 9:29 a.m.] anfroholic That's also a good idea, but not sure how easy it would be to establish some kind of baseline [2025-09-25 9:29 a.m.] anfroholic 40 projects per reticle shot 28 full reticle shots per wafer [2025-09-25 9:30 a.m.] anfroholic There will be some partials at the edges and sides that will be discarded afaik [2025-09-25 9:30 a.m.] urish So we need less than 6 bits of data. I don't think letters are the best way to attack this (but they may just be good enough) [2025-09-25 9:32 a.m.] anfroholic Originally I had thought just naughts and crosses and 'None' could do it, then thought why stop there [2025-09-25 9:32 a.m.] anfroholic alphabet alone is 26^4 = 456,976 [2025-09-25 9:32 a.m.] urish The other question is whether you also want to encode the run id somehow [2025-09-25 9:33 a.m.] urish in case one wanted to identify which wafer the die belongs to [2025-09-25 9:33 a.m.] anfroholic There is also the process and the run, yes [2025-09-25 9:33 a.m.] anfroholic There is always still the ID [2025-09-25 9:33 a.m.] urish but is that for the #🏗️-die-sorter [2025-09-25 9:33 a.m.] anfroholic I am not suggesting we remove that [2025-09-25 9:33 a.m.] anfroholic Correct, basically just the die sorter [2025-09-25 9:35 a.m.] urish so I'd just keep it as simple as possible. Maybe like 2x2 matrices on each edge, that gives you a total of 16 bits, so you could actually encode the data twice + parity? You can also use some of the bits for detecting the orientation [2025-09-25 9:37 a.m.] urish Looking at the space, triangle shape (3-bits) will probably fit better [2025-09-25 9:37 a.m.] anfroholic That's also a great idea. [2025-09-25 9:37 a.m.] urish something like: [2025-09-25 9:38 a.m.] urish {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-EAD48.png {Reactions} 💜 [2025-09-25 9:39 a.m.] urish then you can just cut these shapes out and start playing tetris with the pieces {Reactions} 🤣 [2025-09-25 9:41 a.m.] urish looking at the samples you send, the padring has one darker edge - is that always the case? If yes, then you can use that for orientation [2025-09-25 9:41 a.m.] urish (in any case orientation needs to be sorted out for packaging) [2025-09-25 9:41 a.m.] anfroholic No, I believe that is just an artifact of my bad lighting {Reactions} 👍 [2025-09-25 9:47 a.m.] anfroholic Above, Tim had shared an example output of the reticle stitcher https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1419841819138854993/1420231095215067169 So once a couple of dies are found, creating the map for picking should be prett straightforward after that {Reactions} 👍 [2025-09-25 5:01 p.m.] mithro_ @Leo Moser (mole99) - Thoughts on IDs? [2025-09-25 5:01 p.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - Do you have pictures of your microscope / camera set up? [2025-09-25 5:04 p.m.] 246tnt BTW, are raw dies on reel something common ? (i.e. would packaging house usually be equipped to handle that) [2025-09-25 5:05 p.m.] 246tnt Side note: I tried reading the die-ID on my MPW1 chip with my microscope and no way ... I can barely make-out the OSHW logo and that's if I light it at just the right angle ... [2025-09-25 5:29 p.m.] mithro_ Guess I got too use to having access to @digshadow's higher end equipement 🙂 {Reactions} 😂 [2025-09-25 5:30 p.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate / @Leo Moser (mole99) - We probably want a "pin 1" type marker as well for orientation. [2025-09-25 7:04 p.m.] digshadow @Tim 'mithro' Ansell how quickly do you need something? maybe sync up this weekend? [2025-09-25 7:34 p.m.] mithro_ @digshadow - Well, having an ID which is readable by people beyond your friends seems like something we should do 🙂 [2025-09-25 7:34 p.m.] digshadow Hmmm? Need more context [2025-09-25 7:35 p.m.] mithro_ Dunno - but reels are the preferred format for PCBA houses normally. [2025-09-25 7:36 p.m.] 246tnt Yeah, because of pick and place machines, but if the machine dealing with dies aren't made for those, that won't help 😅 [2025-09-25 7:37 p.m.] mithro_ At the moment the IDs which where used on the Google shuttles don't seem to be easily readable by the equipment that @tnt or @Andrew Wingate have. Thus it might be good for us to go with an ID which is bigger and allows more people to read them easily without having to get a good microscope from you 🙂 {Reactions} 👍 [2025-09-25 7:39 p.m.] mithro_ @tnt - Yeah, these are the type of questions we are trying to sort out now, I'd like to do at least some type of short PCBA with wire bonding run (probably using GFMPW-0 or GFMPW-1 ICs) ASAP. [2025-09-26 2:02 a.m.] anfroholic Pardon the mess. This is the microscope I used to send the picture above. The crappy little black usb microscope on it's side also did not seem to work very well. Some of it could be bad lighting, user error, or they really are just too small to be read by crappy equipment. {Attachments} 2025-09_media/20250925_205723-71889.jpg {Reactions} ❤️ [2025-09-26 2:03 a.m.] anfroholic Yes, a pin1 is probably highly useful [2025-09-26 2:04 a.m.] anfroholic I was trying to come up with something that would still be at least partially useful if the dies were cut up further, but I think now that's another problem. [2025-09-26 2:16 a.m.] anfroholic Expanding on @urish idea of some bitwise information encoded into the corners we could also go maybe as far as something like this if the corners of the triangles are always black--or whatever color--that could be used to identify location/skew/etc. and if triangle has a side length of 5 that leaves 12bits of info per corner--this obviously does not count for the pin1 corner though. The deeper we dive into this, the more it seems like it may be useful to keep these human readable. {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-26398.png [2025-09-26 2:24 a.m.] mithro_ @Andrew Wingate - I think @Leo Moser (mole99) thoughts are important, as he is the one who will have to implement it 🙂 [2025-09-26 2:26 a.m.] anfroholic Oh, of course! I was just throwing anything at the wall to see if it sticks. You are correct, I've been thinking more application than implementation. @Leo Moser (mole99) I would love some advice on what's possible and easiest to implement. [2025-09-26 2:29 a.m.] anfroholic @Leo Moser (mole99) I see on this chip I have there are *?different layers?* that have different colors. Is it possible to do something like what's pictured here for the best contrast? {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-EDA4D.png [2025-09-26 2:32 a.m.] anfroholic It seems there are a couple dies on this wafer that have done something similar {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-976AC.png [2025-09-26 4:15 a.m.] mithro_ Maybe people in the SiliconPrawn discord might have thoughts - they have spent lots of time looking at various markings / doodles on chips. [2025-09-26 4:37 a.m.] mithro_ [2025-09-26 7:36 a.m.] 246tnt IME contrast / color is extremely dependent on how you light the samples. [2025-09-26 8:05 a.m.] mole99 I'm on my way back from Austrochip, so I can reply to questions again :) I started [gf180mcu-precheck](https://github.com/wafer-space/gf180mcu-precheck) a few days ago. It is a custom LibreLane flow to read the user GDS, perform various checks (e.g. top-level, density, etc.), insert the ID, and whatever else we need. At the end, you receive the final GDS used for fabrication. I use the KLayout API to generate the shapes for the ID. Currently, I'm using the built-in TEXT PCell to generate the digits for the ID, but we can use anything else: a QR code, a pattern of dots etc. One thing to consider: we should not specify a fixed position for the ID. Instead, we provide an abstract cell for the ID that the user can place anywhere on their die, which is later replaced with the generated ID. This allows to do custom padframes (or no padframes at all). I can extract the position of the ID cell during the precheck. With the location of the die on the reticle and the offset of the ID, you can position the camera above the ID. As for the layers, I would place the ID at Metal5 (topmost layer) with a no-fill shape around it. I assume this will give enough contrast. There are ways to achieve different colors with diffraction patterns, however, I'm no expert on that :) {Reactions} 💜 [2025-09-26 8:15 a.m.] urish We did some experimentation with diffraction patterns on ttihp0p3, we may have some results when we get back the chips (Dec?) [2025-09-30 4:04 a.m.] mithro_ @Leo Moser (mole99) / @Andrew Wingate - I responded at https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher/issues/1#issuecomment-3346714007 {Embed} https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher/issues/1 Die ID location and design · Issue #1 · wafer-space/reticle-stitcher Hey @mole99, I figured this was the best place to continue this conversation about the ID location, design, and layer. You posted: One thing to consider: we should not specify a fixed position for ... 2025-09_media/1-73DDA [2025-09-30 4:05 a.m.] mithro_ I would love people like @tnt to be able to identify they got the right part and the pin zero / orientation 🙂 [2025-09-30 4:36 a.m.] anfroholic @Tim 'mithro' Ansell and @Leo Moser (mole99) For reference, the first pic was taken with my phone. Pretty new samsung. Second is taken with one of those super cheap usb microscopes {Attachments} 2025-09_media/image-9C60B.png 2025-09_media/WIN_20250924_04_58_54_Pro-EB0CA.jpg [2025-09-30 7:38 a.m.] mole99 The cheap microscope looks quite good already! Did you take the picture with your phone in macro mode? ============================================================== Exported 80 message(s) ==============================================================